Sunday, June 25, 2006

I felt like posting something here this evening before getting to bed early due to my late night exploits in San Antonio last night that resulted in me getting back home to Aggieland at the wonderful hour of 3 AM this morning, firing off an e-mail to my friend who was heading back to Austin to let her know I got home safe and sound, she was a bit worried about the long drive at that late hour on the highways and back roads I take to get home. A lot of money was raised last night at the Rolling Oaks Sports Bar & Grille for the San Antonio Children's Shelter which helps abandoned and abused children. I wasn't feeling well, but I went anyway to help the kids. I'm glad I did, it was an experience. Bonnie Bishop and her new band debuted for the first time after some orginal members and not so orginal members have parted with the band over the last few months. I got there early, so early I was there for rehearsal and got a free show and got to hear some new stuff...some of which didn't make the set list. The Coach was also there drinking his Miller Lites. I had two tipsy and quite older women end up joining me at my table....thank God I sat farther back from the stage or Bonnie would have had a field day, it was bad. I'll be seeing them soon...July 15th...in Austin to quasi celebrate the beginning of the week leading up to the 22nd...a great day in world history. Hopefully my new beer drinking bud will be there...no not the Coach, but another member of the entourage who I met and clicked with immediately, seriously one cool mofo.

So what else...oh for those in Aggieland...turn your radio dial to KACD, 96.9 FM, on the air, finally. And for now until the FCC straightens some stuff out...all Gregorian all the time!

I've got a hockey tournament this coming weekend. 4 games in 3 days. I need to stock up on gatorade and other provisions. Should be fun though. The action kicks off at 6:50 PM Friday at the Wolf. See ya there...go Gold's!

Ray Wylie's new album comes out Tuesday, looking forward to "Snake Farm"...just sounds nasty, Snake farm, pretty much is.

Well of to bed, I'm in a great mood today despite the late hours, the early wake up and what not. Hockey game tomorrow night...8PM at the Wolf.

p.s. I'm tired and not proof reading this...tough noogies Bunky. Snootchy-bootchies!

8 comments:

Vastine said...

I've been thinking again, and that's always a bad thing. But anyways, it has to deal with the Catholic stuff. One of the 'Catlics' on the board said that Christ came to establish His church. Fine, but where does that leave OT Saints? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited him righteousness." As you and I know, the Reformed Coventantal idea would have no problem with this catholicity (little c!) as they would see Abraham as the first member of the Church. If Catholics believe that Christ founded the church while on earth, then that leaves the OT people high and dry. I'm sure some church father has written about this, but I wanted to check with you.

Blessings

Ed said...

I don't know abut that one, it's not something I've read much about. But, it doesn't leave OT folks high and dry. Remember the Church is the body of believers, so Abraham had faith even to the point of being willing to kill his son (hmm, fore shadowing anyone?).

The difference the folks on that board are trying to make is between the old and new covenant views. In the old convenant we see Israel as a church of blood (to be Jewish by birth and sacrificially) and in the new covenant where it is faith and not blood lines that determine who is a part of it. The OT folks who had faith in God would be a part of the Church.

Remember, in 1 Peter we are told that during the time between His death and resurrection, Christ went to preach to those in prison, sometimes translated as hell, but not to be confused as the hell of the damned (also see the Apostle's Creed). Who could Chirst been going to preach to? OT Hebrews, everyone there? Let's ask St. Clement of Alexandria:

"The Lord preached the gospel to those in Hades, as well as to all in earth, In order that all might believe and be saved, wherever they were. If, then, the Lord descended to Hades for no other end but to preach the gospel, as He did descend, it was either to preach the gospel to all, or to the Hebrews only. It accordingly to all, then all who believe shall be saved, although they may be of the Gentiles, on making their profession there”

So in that sense, whether we want to view it as we do today; that one can come to know God and be part of Christ's church even if they have never heard the Gospel for whatever reason, because well God can do this sought of thing, and He can, does, and will do it past, present, and future according to His will, OT folks are part of the Church. Whether by their faith or because Christ preached to them on another spiritual plane so they could enter into the vision of God.

Does that make any sense? Christ did found His church, physically on earth, but spiritually it had much deeper roots and must include the OT folks. For the whole of the OT points to Christ, while the whole NT reflects Christ as the fulfillment of the OT.

Not bad for for throwing it together in 15 minutes...I need to get to work, going to be a long day and week. If you've got questions, post em and I'll try to answer them.

Vastine said...

Does that make any sense? Christ did found His church, physically on earth, but spiritually it had much deeper roots and must include the OT folks. For the whole of the OT points to Christ, while the whole NT reflects Christ as the fulfillment of the OT.

no it doesn't, sorry. Andy and I had a conversation where he belabored the equality between the physical and spiritual branches of the church and individuals. And as I understand the Catholics on the board, the physical unity and union of the church is just as important as her spiritual reality.

Andy said...

"Andy and I had a conversation where he belabored the equality between the physical and spiritual branches of the church and individuals. And as I understand the Catholics on the board, the physical unity and union of the church is just as important as her spiritual reality."

I think you understand them, then. I have to admit, it is an entirely different perspective than what we are used to. This is the basis of Sacramental Christianity.

A sacrament, as you may or may not know, is an outward sign of an inward grace. There are Seven, but there are also sacramentals which are numerous. These are things like Holy Water and Icons. All the Sacraments and sacramentals are connections (connexions) of the physical world with the metaphysical world.

It is safe to say that this specific Christian worldview does not work within a form of Christianity based on Rationalism (the philosophical classical revival began during the Renaissance and perfected in the 1600 and 1700s.).

This is one of the main difficulties in Reformed/Catholic dialogue, as one side sees the other as superstitious, mystical, and their view of the Sacraments as "works." The other side sees the other group as limiting God's power and putting God in mankind's limited "mind-made box." So it proves difficult for each side to understand the other on the other's own terms.

I'm encouraged to see you trying to get a better grasp on the situation, Ben.

Vastine said...

I think you understand them, then. I have to admit, it is an entirely different perspective than what we are used to. This is the basis of Sacramental Christianity.

But I think it is a perspective that is incorrect. I think what is Biblical is the view that the spiritual is reality and the physical shadows of reality. It's a very Edwards idea, but it's the one I think is Biblically accurate. I recall reading several verses to that affect, but I'll have to look for them again.

Secondly, I see too many holes in Catholic theology to where the claim that Bible + Tradition = fullness of the Faith as a little over the top, so to speak. There are too many beautiful contributions to the Faith by Protestants to dismiss Protestantism, imo. But certainly there are incredible contributions from Catholics, Chesterton, to name one.

Also, I credit the Catholics for a steady doctrine, and the Catholics are correct to point out the Protestants wishy-washy-ness. An example is the end-times stuff. I read 98% of Christians world-wide do not subscribe to dispensational, Left-Behind Biblical understanding. Yet those quacks are so loud that everyone thinks all Christians believe that planes will fall from the sky when Christ returns. Perhaps they will, but I'll stick with the common understanding for now.

Ed said...

And as I understand the Catholics on the board, the physical unity and union of the church is just as important as her spiritual reality.

I have something that might help you grasp this a bit better. I'll e-mail it to you. Physical and spiritual unity are equally important. Allow me to stand on the shoulders of a giant:

"Jesus himself, at the hour of his Passion, prayed "that they may all be one" (Jn 17:21). This unity, which the Lord has bestowed on his Church and in which he wishes to embrace all people, is not something added on, but stands at the very heart of Christ's mission. Nor is it some secondary attribute of the community of his disciples. Rather, it belongs to the very essence of this community. God wills the Church, because he wills unity, and unity is an expression of the whole depth of his agape.
In effect, this unity bestowed by the Holy Spirit does not merely consist in the gathering of people as a collection of individuals. It is a unity constituted by the bonds of the profession of faith, the sacraments and hierarchical communion.10 The faithful are one because, in the Spirit, they are in communion with the Son and, in him, share in his communion with the Father: "Our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ" (1 Jn 1:3). For the Catholic Church, then, thecommunion of Christians is none other than the manifestation in them of the grace by which God makes them sharers in his own communion, which is his eternal life. Christ's words "that they may be one" are thus his prayer to the Father that the Father's plan may be fully accomplished, in such a way that everyone may clearly see "what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things" (Eph 3:9). To believe in Christ means to desire unity; to desire unity means to desire the Church; to desire the Church means to desire the communion of grace which corresponds to the Father's plan from all eternity. Such is the meaning of Christ's prayer: 'Ut unum sint'." - John Paul II

just an FYI..agape- this word represents divine, unconditional, self-sacrificing, active, volitional, thoughtful love.

Andy said...

"But I think it is a perspective that is incorrect. I think what is Biblical is the view that the spiritual is reality and the physical shadows of reality. It's a very Edwards idea, but it's the one I think is Biblically accurate. I recall reading several verses to that affect, but I'll have to look for them again.

Secondly, I see too many holes in Catholic theology to where the claim that Bible + Tradition = fullness of the Faith as a little over the top, so to speak. There are too many beautiful contributions to the Faith by Protestants to dismiss Protestantism, imo.
"

I understand your thinking and I don't blame you. I wrestled with these things for over a year myself before coming to the conclusion I did. And I don't plan to stop investigating either. Also keep in mind that even Mormonism can contribue some beauty to the worship of God, but we both would agree that it (in and of itself) is wrong.* So, the beauty of a belief or culture does not necessitate that it directly came from God, as I'm sure you are well aware of. It just helps keep things in perspective, though.

I hope you continue to investigate those holes you see within Catholicism and read how Catholic Christians, both old and new, have addressed them.

- Andy

*Please don't think I am comparring Protestantism with Mormonism directly.

Ed said...

Andy,

I'm not sure the analogy with Mormonism is the best one. I see where Ben is coming from, we must aknowledge that many Protestant thinkers have contributed much to the our understanding. Even if they hold some views that are not in line with Catholic theology, it does not mean we can discount them entirely.

What I can agree with is that there must be some minute amount truth in any human attempt to seek and know God, even if it amounts to only the in dwelling knowledge that there is a higher power but not necessarily knowing where to properly direct that desire to worship and glorify God.